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Jan 16, 08 - 08:40 pm Comment from: MaLvado

Shiny spinning saucers mesmerizes morons.

Jan 16, 08 - 08:42 pm Comment from: LorD1776

That 30 day waiting period was the one thing that really irked me.
Stupid WalMart.

Jan 16, 08 - 08:46 pm Comment from: R

Entrenched business models that will slowly erode are the reason.

Imagine that buggy-whip makers had been super-wealthy. Cars would have probably come out with whip holders. Not that there isn't room for that sort of thing...

Jan 16, 08 - 08:48 pm Comment from: DogGone

This is a work in progress. If the revenue stream looks promising but not reducing piracy then the studios will loosen the reins.

Give it time. I'm happy that all studios signed on.

does anyone know how large the movie files are?

I don't like that 24 hour thing you have to watch the movie. That sort of sucks if something happens and you can't get to the movie, which I'm sure will happen to lots of people

Jan 16, 08 - 09:00 pm Comment from: LorD1776

"does anyone know how large the movie files are?"

One million Gigabytes. Hope ya have broadband.

Jan 16, 08 - 09:01 pm Comment from: Essence

I suspect that the 30 days was a compromise that Steve had to live with to get all the studios on board, which was the right compromise to make. The end result is that iTunes rentals will be very helpful for older movies that are harder to find on bittorrent, but it will never compete on the new movies. The longer studios hesitate, the more people discover how easy bittorent is. And once they do, they never step foot in a video store again.

when movies on vhs first came out there was a delay in titles from the time they left the theater till they hit cable then vhs, lets keep that in mind.

i'm not saying it was right, or is now, just that this is traditionally the model hollywood studios have used time and time again when embracing new distribution tech.

as we saw with vhs, and dvd once the tech starts to gain traction you'll slowly see that window shrink to where it is through more traditional channels.

30 days, LOL.

I can download it for free a couple weeks before the DVD hits shelves thanks to sweet, glorious Verizon FiOS.

Watch it on my computer, TV, or convert with Cucusoft and put it on my iPhone.

I'm not cheap. Don't enjoy stealing. It's just so damn easy, all done with a few mouse clicks. And until I get something legal that's just as easy and instantly gratifying, I'll continue to do it my way.

I thought Apple would have the answer but, whether the fault of Hollywood studios or not, they certainly don't. Even if I didn't have to wait 30 days, between the 24 hour limitation, unwelcome rules on Apple TV (which I gladly would've purchased) and lack of an all you can eat subscription, I'm not paying to be hampered. Loved Daniel Eran's Netflix-like model, he really spoiled me.

I did rent a couple flicks to try it out and hopefully give Steve some more bargaining power should he attempt to fix this mess but it's still business as usual.

Jan 16, 08 - 09:08 pm Comment from: ken1w

Compromises were made to ensure full participation from Day One. By the time Apple negotiates next time, it will be in a position to demand better terms. Even with the current less than ideal terms from the studios, Apple will do what it does best... make the user experience ideal.

Jan 16, 08 - 09:11 pm Comment from: ron

SteveJack gets it.

Jan 16, 08 - 09:15 pm Comment from: Toasty

While I think its kinda dumb to have to wait 30 days. It's on par with a lot of video on demand/pay per view. I would think that while other PPV services have to wait that long, it would be unfair to let Apple dish them out day one. This would cause havoc with other video rental services.

Waiting 30 days hardly makes them new releases. Does this mean that all movies will be $2.99?

Steve Jack knows what's up....good opinion.

Even if iTunes movie rentals came out on same day as DVDs, people would still download via bittorrent. Torrent is free. Absolutely no cost whatsoever.
Sure, if HK had the iTunes Movie and Music store, then I wouldn't mind paying for the odd movie to watch during boring days, and I suddenly have a desire to watch an old movie I liked before. But sadly its not.
But on the whole, torrents come out nearly on same day as movie theater releases as camcorder jobs, and those are gobbled up fast on the web. There's no way that iTunes can compete with that, until the very day in the far future where the movies will be available via iTunes BEFORE it comes out at theaters. (ie. nearly impossible).

Jan 16, 08 - 09:25 pm Comment from: blucaso

@ R2, how did you "rent a couple flicks to try it out" when it hasn't even started operating yet, and won't for a couple weeks?

And how would your trying it out give Steve any bargaining power? Please explain...

@Blucaso. I Believe the rental service is live on itunes now.

blucaso,

Movie rentals are available on Apple's iTunes Store now.

I wouldn't disagree with SteveJack's opinion that Wal-Mart is the reason why the iTunes Movies section and Apple TV languished for a year.

YOU, sir, don't get it. SOME of us don't give two shits about this 30-day window, and SOME of us need to catch up on movies. The time I'm waiting until King of Kong is available for rental will be spent renting movies that I need to catch up on, like Simpsons Movie, etc.

BJ

Jan 16, 08 - 09:39 pm Comment from: DRM sucks

blucaso: not sure you are right on this - there are rentals up in iTunes and there is a Rent Movie button.

I think R2 means that the more popular it is, the more bargaining power Apple has.

Regardless, the system is necessarily compromised by studios afraid of digital distribution affecting their "perfected" plan of staggered release and afraid of Apple being dominant in this area.

I would much prefer buying the HD movie via iTunes, but rental is at least a step in the right direction. The studios are less afraid of rentals because they have heard of them and lived with them and <<gasp>> even profited from them.

M Cheung: I do agree with you, but I think we can look to the example of Radiohead's latest CD for an example of how consumers operate. There are some people that are going to pirate regardless of how consumer friendly a service is. However, there are those people that, even though they could pirate, would rather that the artists get their due compensation. There are also a lot of people that are basically looking for the easiest technological path - if they can download a P2P program an get some stuff, they will. But if they can get pristine copies easily from iTunes (or another service) they will.

The thing that the movie studios have to come to terms with is that there will be piracy (there has been for years with VHS). As you point out, that cannot be stopped. However, a consumer friendly service will still make plenty of money for them. They just have to let go of the notion of controlling everything.

The iTunes store has started offering rentals. I am downloading (renting) the Simpsons Movie at the moment (967MB) with iTunes.

MDN take exactly on target. And during this wasted year, millions of movies have been downloaded via torrents, for which the studios revenue was zero.

Jan 16, 08 - 09:49 pm Comment from: silverhawk

And I'm getting set to buy a Blu ray player!

@Michael Cheung

I see your point but the same could be said fro music and iTunes is doing fine in that space.
What iTunes brings is consistent quality down loads I have spent weeks downloading a quality video file yet I can download Digg Nation in HD in a few minutes, and know one will come knocking at my door with a. Now with a 30 day lag can still get it faster via Torrent. Please studios get with the program give us quality fair prices and same day rentals on iTunes and TV on demand.

Jan 16, 08 - 09:58 pm Comment from: Magilla Gorilla

hey guys-

can someone show me how to dl movies via a torrent? walk me thru as if i was a 6 year old..... Seriously. I'd like to take a stab. i'm not for stealing content, but this has always piqued my interest. my email is

Anyone else notice that about 80% films (3 dozen I checked) are FULL SCREEN. So let me get this straight. You have to have a HI-DEF Wide screen TV for Apple TV but 80% of the rentals a Full Screen.
PUKE.
Even newer films like 300 and Die Hard 4 were Full Screen.

Jan 16, 08 - 10:18 pm Comment from: Cubert

Blucaso,
To clarify others: Rentals on AppleTV won't happen for 2 weeks, but you can go to the iTunes Store and rent movies right now via your computer.

30 days, whatever. I don't see the point of paying so much for the things. I'll stick with Netflix. I have to wait, so what? At any one time I have at least 2 discs sitting waiting to be watched. It's a much better deal. Maybe it makes sense for people who watch movies on their iPod or laptop, but in its current state, it doesn't match my usage.

Jan 16, 08 - 10:30 pm Comment from: TowerTone

What is this "toilet paper" that Steve Jack claims Wal-Mart sells?

Jan 16, 08 - 10:42 pm Comment from: ballonknot

TowerTone,

You might know it as anal tissue.

@Randy:
Rentals for your iPod RIGHT NOW
Rentals for your TV (and thus widescreen) TWO WEEKS

Not everything announced on Tuesday was available on Tuesday, ya gotta wait for the Update.

Downloaded a rental, it is in fact a 24 hour period you need to watch it in. I don't like this. If you started the Movie, you have the next 24 hours to view the whole thing.

Also interesting if you re-set your computer clock to an earlier time, it increase the hours you can view the movie you started.

Kind of a pain to do but it does increase the hours you can view the Movie. So if you started the Movie, could not finish it, as long as you reset your clock backwards on your Computer before the period expires you can get extra time to view it.

Jan 16, 08 - 10:50 pm Comment from: jjjj

Has anyone used Netflix's streaming? Do they have to wait 30 days after DVD release to stream?

Movie studios are an edgy group. Hollywood is all about control. The window to DVD has been shortened in recent years. It goes something like this, iirc: Theatrical Film release, airplane release, PPV release, DVD release, HBO/SHO release, Network TV release. Now they have to slot in digital releases. Each release is a payday to the studios.

I think the 30 day delay is silly, but that's the way the studios have operated traditionally. You know, first, theatrical release, then 6 MONTHS later, DVD release, then later, store rentals, and VOD. I don't recall what the store rental lag was, but it has to be at least 30 days, otherwise, as you note, Walmart and Target and BestBuy get upset. As their clout diminishes as DVDs become less of a lossleader, then that 30 day wait may be eliminated at some future time. The existing models will crumble in the digital age, it just takes a little time.

Jan 16, 08 - 11:37 pm Comment from: Petey

Duh!

This is so obvious it's child's play.

Basically the studios want to maximise sales of dvds as priority number one as they have invested the marketing $ in creating the dvd content, designing the packaging and marketing the movie to the masses via print and tv advertising.

This costs a hell of alot of money to do unlike just uploading the movie onto a web-based video rental service.

Studios want to sell dvds, broadcast it on cable subscription services and then rent the movie to anyone else who hasn't seen or bought the movie.

It's pretty bloody obvious to anyone who knows a tiny bit of information about marketing.

Don't forget, you can only get High-Def video's on your AppleTV. No hi-def download via iTunes to your computer is allowed, and you can't copy the movie from the AppleTV to your computer to watch it. Probably because you might have a special DVI device that is capable of recording the digital HD signal in realtime.

Jan 16, 08 - 11:51 pm Comment from: It's About Time

Right on MDN. You hit the nail right on the Download.

Jan 16, 08 - 11:53 pm Comment from: grok

I usually agree with SJ, but he's totally full of shit here. AppleTV did not languish because of Wal-Mart - Steven admitted just yesterday that AppleTV was not what the consumer wanted, hence the second take.
Of course the studios want to make as much money as possible off of DVD's - just like Apple makes as much as possible off of macs and iPods.
And the movie studios are not going to lose massive business to bittorrent, as the music guys have. There are a lot more Wal-Mart DVD buyers than bittorent downloaders. I know goofballs at work who routinely buy new release movies they know nothing about because they were on sale or bundled with a better movie. Would you want to give up that kind of lemming revenue?

The 30-day wait sucks. Its almost as bad as the incessant whining from everyone all over the internet after a MacWorld show in which Apple releases really cool new stuff.

Jan 17, 08 - 12:23 am Comment from: TheConfuzed1

I'd still prefer an unlimited rental option. Hopefully that is on the horizon.

Jan 17, 08 - 12:32 am Comment from: Mac Daddy

Well, "Live Free or Die Hard" is 1.51GB, according to my iTunes download folder. I'm getting 610KB/Sec download speed on it, so that should be about 43 minutes to download. Not bad.

Apparently as I type this, it is ready to watch right now, after having downloaded 232MB so far. Lessee, I just clicked on it to see if it would start playing... Success!

So it's pretty close to instant watchability. I'd still be on my way to the video store up the street. And then I'd forget what I wanted to watch as soon as I walked through the doors. I suffer from "Video Store Amnesia."

I like it. I'll like it even more when more titles come online. But I'm gonna use this.

I'm a "light renter." I liked Netflix, but I just don't watch enough movies to get my money's worth from a subscription. This is instant gratification. Nice going, Apple.

Jan 17, 08 - 12:39 am Comment from: Ferf Muckmeyer

You know, it's funny that SteveJack attacked Wal-Mart in the manner that he did. Have any of you ever been to that part of the country? It is the most backwards, dumb shit, inbreeding shithole of a place, where commercials are played on TV literally warning the public about the scientific consequences of incest. And I haven't even gotten to the whole ultra-Jesus evangelical thing. If you go down there and you're not a Christian, you might as well count yourself out of any friendships, business relationships (well, maybe Wal-Mart will stretch that a bit), or anything else. (Not that there is anything wrong with being a Christian or any other religion, for that matter - that's just the way it is there.) Oh, yeah, the next county over from where Wal-Mart is located is where they filmed the movie "Deliverance" - and I've been told there are many people down there that want you to squeal like a pig.

Wal-Mart is the feces of retail, and they have become so powerful because of their size and market share that they can mandate ANYTHING. So think about it - people in good ol' Bentonville, Arkansas are dictating to Hollywood what they want or don't want. SteveJack makes an excellent point of how a retail giant that has too much control of the market can cause this type of crap. Too bad Jobs had to bend on this, but in the end I don't think he had a choice. It amazed me to see that Universal actually agreed to movie rentals, considering all the crap about NBC shows and how Apple dropped them from iTunes. But that is Wal-Mart - a butthole company deep in the heart of butthole country.

FM

My prediction: If (when) the iTunes movie downloads is a big hit, studios will make a lot of cash. The iTunes releases won't threaten DVD sales....people that want to own the disc, especially Blu-Ray, will continue to do so at least for the next couple of years. Other people rent. This is where the iTunes movie rentals will start to dominate. Let's face it, not everyone can afford to go out and buy an AppleTV tomorrow. But slowly, iTunes will cut in and push out the Blockbusters and Rogers (Canada) of the world. DVD rentals will start to drop. As they drop, the studios will make more. How? Well, Blockbuster buys DVDs at a wholesale rate. Let's say 1 DVD of Pirates of the Caribbean costs $17 for Blockbuster. If they rent it 15 times @ $4 they earn $60 less the $17 for a profit of $43.

If Apple keeps $1 and rents a movie for $4, the studio gets $3. For the same 15 rentals, the studio makes $45 versus $17 from selling to Blockbuster.

If the transition happens faster, and Walmart-Amazon's DVD sales aren't really impacted, the 30 day wait period will disappear. I believe that the 30 days is more to cushion (or from agreements with) the Blockbusters of the world. The studios WILL find that the iTunes rentals are very profitable. And when they do, they will start demanding $10 per rental and @#$%#$ up the whole thing. And by "they" I mean Universal.

Jan 17, 08 - 01:07 am Comment from: An Optimist

I predict that Wal-Mart will be selling tons of AppleTVs by the end of the year.

Jan 17, 08 - 06:24 am Comment from: Wingsy

The 24-hour limit sucks, and here's why. Many times when I rent a movie and watch it (in the living room on the big LCD), the resident teen won't watch it at the same time, for one reason or the other. She'll watch it the next evening or so, with a friend, in her bedroom. That can't happen with iTunes rentals. Also, if I have get interrupted and decide to watch the remainder of the movie the next evening, I'd have to start watching it earlier the next evening so the 24-hr limit won't expire in the middle of the 2nd viewing. So if I sit down to watch at 8, the next evening I'd have to start at 6 or so to be able to finish it. That stinks. I think the time limit should have been 52 hours (or at least 28 hrs) - that's about 3 evening's worth of time.

Jan 17, 08 - 07:34 am Comment from: LinuxGuyAndMacProdigalSon

My guess is that SJ gave the studios what they wanted, but told them they might, on their own accord, come back and re-negotiate the terms and/or pricing if sales do not meet expectations.

Apple already has the studios signed up and resetting the deal with customers later can save the day without embarrassing the studios.

The movie studios are working hard to prove themselves to be the same dinosaurs the music labels have done.

I would say the relationship between movie/internet is currently where it was between music/internet 7 years ago. These days there are a number of pirate divx sites which stream perfectly, have up-to-date content and much of it is good quality. These sites can become an irresistible draw to people when there's nothing any good on TV (ie quite often).

What Apple and the studios need to do quickly - before this kind of piracy becomes as established as mp3's have, is offer a similar service for a reasonable cost which does NOT frustrate and get in the way of a customer's desired watching preferences. I do not want Steve Jobs or any music exec telling me how I can and can't watch the movie I have paid to rent... such as PC and/or ATV... and/or iPod... and/or iPhone etc.

Jobs famously commented that, unlike a computer, a TV is for turning your brain off... and that's exactly why no one will want to grapple with complex watching 'con-do's/can't-do's when wishing to download and watch a movie. Especially when all the rules appear to make no sense at all to the customer other than be a cause for frustration vaguely connected with an idea that he/she may be a criminal. AppleTV should be as 'invisible' the end user as the iPod is, otherwise it will fail - for the same critical reasons of excessive 'policing' that often get levelled at Microsoft.

I agree with the poster who said that a 30-hour rental is best as this would include 2 evenings... and evening is when 99.9% of people watch movie content. Perhaps Apple should also offer a 'dollar-a-day' extension service on movies so that people can break and watch over several days if necessary.

The movie studios concern about harming DVD sales is truly crazy. Releasing online content the same day as DVDs would bring the studios untold riches that would make DVD sales and rentals look like a candle in the sunshine. If anything, online releases should happen BEFORE DVD... with the disc being the final ownership option for people who wish to collect movies.

No doubt the 30 day delay is to boost DVD sales. The real killer for me in this deal though is the price and the 24 hour clock once a movie is viewed.

Netflix is a far better deal. Sure, I won't get the movie as quickly, but the cost per movie is far less, and there is no 24 hour clock when I start viewing it. I can keep the disk for a week and view it every day if I choose. Invite a friend over and view it with them again.

Jan 17, 08 - 09:38 am Comment from: Big Al

I don't steal movies. I rent DVDs when the titles are released at my local video store. I then rip a copy and take the DVD back.

I watch it when I have the time to sit down and watch a movie. If I think I may watch it again, I hold on to the copy. If the movie was crap I delete it. I have been doing a lot of deleting lately.

If the movie was really good I reduce a copy for my iPod.

It is fair use to make a copy to watch at my convenience. If the studios think otherwise that does not make them right. If the law has not been tested in the Supreme Court it is probably wrong. The Studios have been known to 'Bribe' politicians in order to get favorable laws passed. Consumers know bad Law when they see it.

30 days delay is INDUSTRY STANDARD. There has been a 30 day delay for cable pay-per-view , FOREVER. This is not an Apple-only thing.

And yes, it is obviously to protect DVD sales.

And no, it is not Apple "caving" to the studios- it is Apple adhering to current industry norms- to get their foot in the door. Once Apple becomes the premier rental model, and prove to the studios that they do it better than anyone else, then they can leverage their clout and demand better terms for their customers- I have no doubt that that is the long-term plan.

Remember, Steve J was content to sit back and watch as the studios pooped themselves trying and failing at their own download models. He has all the time in the world to let them dig their own graves.... then swoop in on his white horse and save the day.

Steve J knows EXACTLY what he's doing. The studiotards have to come around at their own speed.