MacDailyNews - Where Mac news comes first

If you're going to snipe at the columnists you feature here, why not give them their due up front? When I see you taking apart somebody paragraph by paragraph, I visit another site for news. By the time we understand he's moving to Mac and his reasons, you've turned him into an idiot. You do it with Enderle and other writers, as if that makes you smarter. I don't expect you to adhere to the standards of journalism, but it appears immature to treat columnists this way. The guy woke up, but you want to knock him out and back to sleep. A little more respect, please.

It is funny about how time gets compressed in people's minds and history gets distorted. Many people think it is just the last year or two that Apple has come roaring back, but in truth the company has been on a pretty steady upward swing for at least six years, and arguably longer.

I also chuckle when writers like this one associate the quality of Mac software with MacOSX. The list of great (or at least important) cross-platform software that started on the Mac includes Excel, PowerPoint, PageMaker, Photoshop, Illustrator, Premiere, Mathematica, AOL, iTunes, FileMaker and more -- and all of these started on the "classic" Mac OS.

I don't understand why MDN is always so interested by Switcher stories. Do we Mac users really need to get our decision validated by others. I personally don't give a damn if some celebrity or unknown developer suddenly sees the light. The story may be interesting to his/her mom but I don't care.

Apr 21, 08 - 12:41 pm Comment from: Willie G

@max314

All MDN is doing is pointing out the writer's errors. There is nothing wrong about that... truthfully, if these so-called columnists and bloggers and what-not actually managed to maintain journalistic integrity by FACT CHECKING, there would be no need for MDN to do what it does.

If you want to be spoon-fed a bunch of tripe, and take it at face value, then I pity you, and yes you should go get your 'news' elsewhere.

max314,

Does your definition of "respect" mean that MDN should overlook obvious errors and mistakes and let them go uncorrected?

MDN reported this article perfectly, as usual.

Apr 21, 08 - 12:42 pm Comment from: Buster

@Max314

Not sure what you are referring to but I found MDN's comments relatively bang on. Even when discussing OS9 vs Windows stability...it is indeed debatable. ANd there were many programs back in the late 90's.

I read MDN because they do slap you around when you make non-factual statements. Rightfully so. In grayer areas, they do mention that it is debatable but Duhhhh, it is a pro-Mac site. Take it for what its worth.

I think max314 has his panties up in a bunch... or maybe he is bright and in disguise yelling back at MDN as if anyone really cares if ONE person gets upset and doesn't visit the site anymore. Pretty soon he will run out of new sites to get mad at and just accept it how it is. And btw, Enderle was an idiot.

The truth is so simple. Apple has been on a major upswing since Steve Jobs came back.

Apr 21, 08 - 12:53 pm Comment from: mrmikey

The good old days are returning. I remember when I beta tested PageMaker 1.0 for Windows (I was a long time beta tester for Aldus Corp). We were given explicit instructions from the testing team:

"If it doesn't run like it does on the Mac, it's a bug."

Comin' around... comin' around again...

MDN is trying for too much points scoring here.

NT was good for its time, as Bright says. And not only did it have it preemptive multitasking and protected memory, Dave Cutler also gave it a decent filesystem -- something even OS X hasn't got, since it inherited the old Mac OS's filesystem.

NT also had some kind of internal security. The old Mac OS, just like Windows 98, had none:

"The MacOS system of internal boundaries is very weak. There is a wired-in assumption that there is but a single user, so there are no per-user privilege groups. Multitasking is cooperative, not pre-emptive. All MultiFinder applications run in the same address space, so bad code in any application can corrupt anything outside the operating system's low-level kernel. Security cracks against MacOS machines are very easy to write; the OS has been spared an epidemic mainly because very few people are motivated to crack it."

http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/html/ch03s02.html#mac_os_contrast

OS X is far preferable to XP or Vista. And while Microsoft themselves are professional liars -- and have people like Enderle and Thurrott to lie on their behalf -- it is important to be truthful ourselves.

NT compared more than favourably with the old Mac OS, and was a good choice for Bright at the time.

Apr 21, 08 - 12:57 pm Comment from: Spark

First computer in 1997? I feel old. However, it is clear that the Mr Bright's historical perspective is limited, and definitely shaped by '90's anti-apple propaganda.

Apr 21, 08 - 01:01 pm Comment from: Gandalf

The key to running OS9 successfully was dumping all the MS crap. I thought I had and was running at one or two crashes per week then found a couple of MS libraries lurking, trashed them and zero crashes.

OS9 was is fast, I just bought a G4 733MHz Digital Audio to run Photoshop 3! Cheaper than buying Photoshop now and I don't need it.

Can we stop with promoting Apple, some of my competitors are thinking of getting Macs. Maybe Zune Tang can come up with some reverse-switcher tales.

Apr 21, 08 - 01:02 pm Comment from: Cubert

Time for everyone to stand on the rooftops and scream that modern Macs can run every piece of software on the planet!

I like and enjoy MDN's take on things - that's what makes reading their pages a joy.

If I want the unadulterated version I can just click the link they thoughtfully provide.

Keep the relevant snipes up - it's what makes then different!

Apr 21, 08 - 01:11 pm Comment from: Cubert

@Spark,
Got my first computer ever (my Cube) in Sept. 2000 - I was 28 at the time. I had resisted buying a computer for years because I thought they all sucked. I was wrong - it was the Windoze PCs that sucked. Using my friend's Mac for 20 minutes was all it took.

I get a laugh when people think Macs were/are so very expensive. The first PC system purchased by my employer was $10,000+ including the printer. That was after the time of the Lisa and Macs were, I think, at less than $3,000 (excl printer). So, 12" vs 9" display and a printer for $7,000. Which one was more expensive?

Then, years later, my two brother-in-laws went to a swap meet to buy a new PC for each. Mac's were too expensive. They bought "junk" swap meet stuff at $3,000 each (no printer but they did get a sound card). This was at a time when Apple Macs were typically around $2,000 and with bigger than 9" screens. What am I missing here?

People say that PC's are less expensive but no one buys the less expensive stuff and ends up paying more for their PC than I ever did for any of my Macs.

Macs are too expensive - hogwash and lies.

To Max314...

Oh come on, take a chill pill, I think "his take" is pretty darn funny. Do I agree with it 100% of the time, umm probably but even if you don't relax it is always funny. There is a basic difference between PC and Mac users. We use Mac because we want to, PC users never seem all that excited to use a PC. It is very hard as a Mac user not to try and spread the word...to verbally YANK a PC user to at least TRY a Mac. I use both, I use both every single day and both work. What you find is that after a few weeks or months using both systems side by side, more and more of your time is spent on the Mac....they are simply a joy to use. As for the iPhone..WOW! it is by far the coolest piece of tech I have picked up and owned in a very long time. I've had lots of Smart Phones but the iPhone is way ahead of the game.

Enderle is an idiot.

Apr 21, 08 - 01:44 pm Comment from: Zune Tang®

I can't help but laugh at MDN's attempt to rewrite history when they encounter the facts. This guy's history data and impressions are accurate, in fact, I think he's being too kind to Apple. Hey MDN, stop drinking the Kool-Aid!

The truth is MACs have always been too expensive, game challenged and never ever had any good software. Ever. I'm still surprised Adobe ported Photoshop to MAC at version 4 after years of fantastic success on revolutionary Windows machines. I see you MAC dorks finally have spreadsheets now. Congrats. MACs were (and are) still years behind Windows.

Your potential. Our passion.™

This is an exciting time in the evolution of mankind. It is the first time in history that you can go down to the mall and buy your way on to the next step in evolution. Don't miss it. Apple gives us all a peek in to the future. This is a wonderful time to be alive. Steve Jobs is coaxing us, prodding us to crawl out of the cave and enjoy the future.....(I admit that is over the top, but gosh darn it Macs are fun to drive.)

Apr 21, 08 - 01:49 pm Comment from: It's About Time

Seems like he just woke up from a very bad dream.

Apr 21, 08 - 01:55 pm Comment from: mr_matalino

Suck on that MAC dorks!

Apr 21, 08 - 01:56 pm Comment from: freefromdesign

MDN is pen happy today

Apr 21, 08 - 01:59 pm Comment from: Ray

He got his first PC in 1997....What a Noob! Hey can we get commentary from people that have real computer knowledge and experience?

Just my $0.02

I can build my own XP based PC for half the price of a Mac and it will still shit all over it.
MAC = overpriced and overhyped.
advertising does alot of brainwashing. i would know. im in the industry -_-

Mr Matalino is clearly one of those that can not be pushed, pulled or coaxed into the future. Sadly his branch of the tree is dying and he and a few others feel comfortable under their rock or in their cave grooming each other and removing bugs from one another.

Strummer123---really...really, I have never found that to be true. I have found that for the last several years, by the time I got done building a PC to have all the treats the Mac has I was very close to the same price. I will admit that it is possible to build a PC cheaper than the cheapest Mac that would be fine for most of the population, but it would lack things like built in bluetooth, and as far as look and feel, my top of the line CAD Dell feels sort of CHEAP compared to the Macbook Pro....and the Dell is about twice as thick and feels like a BRICK when flying.

Apr 21, 08 - 02:29 pm Comment from: Zune Tang®

@strummer123

Awesome post! The only thing I would add is the fact that your wonderful XP machine can play games.

Keep coming back!

Your potential. Our passion.™

Chair thrower:

I'd be a little wary hijacking quotes from Eric S. Raymond without attribution. What with Raymond being the 'strange' dude he is.

'Raymond is an avowed anarcho-capitalist and a supporter of the Libertarian Party. He supported the War on Iraq, and said that the Western world should embark on an "imperialist" military campaign to "civilize" the Muslim world.' [wiki]

He is also a strong advocate of gun use; is aware his remarks might cause 'offence' and be seen as advocating deliberate cultural genocide [!].

Although this has little to do with his programming skills, given his remarks, it points to a seriously distasteful and f*cked-up person and I wouldn't take anything he has to say seriously.

I need to wash my hands now.

Apr 21, 08 - 02:43 pm Comment from: DLMeyer

MDN, what you talkin, Wilbur? OSX was introduced as a free beta-version. The system was SOLD with OS9 up until 10.1 was introduced. 10.2 was a world better - smaller, smarter, snappier - and then came Panther. Just as we thought it couldn't get any better, along came Tiger. But ... 10.0 was advertised as Beta-ware.
And, Macs WERE ever so expensive. Still ARE. Of course, they were worth the money ... but it WAS (and IS) a LOT of money. I guess the "everyone knows" bit should have been put in quotes, as I have.
Note that ZT left the "too" in front of "expensive". There's a world of difference between "so" expensive and "too" expensive. I can live with spending 40% more for a system that will give ME good service for twice as long (and a kid or buddy good service for that much longer). Take THAT, Mr strummer123!

Apr 21, 08 - 02:44 pm Comment from: ron

His name is what? Oh, Bright, OK then..His Christian name (yes, I don't cow-tow with 'first' name). Is Peter: sometime a di-k is called a peter.

I agree with MDN- this time.

Apr 21, 08 - 02:51 pm Comment from: Olmecmystic

The #1 stupidest thing Apple ever did was letting Steve Jobs walk back in 1985. A close second (#1A) happened barely a month later when John Sculley gave away the keys to the kingdom, i.e. the Mac OS, to Bill Gates and M$.

The #1 smartest thing Apple ever did was bringing Steve Jobs back via the NeXT merger. Apple not only gained its co-founder and visionary back, it also acquired the NeXTStep OS he had developed, starting almost as soon as he LEFT. Apple could've had a modern OS X-like OS in the 80's(!), certainly by the early 90's.

The entire "Will Apple Computer go under?" drama back then could've been totally avoided by keeping Steve in-house. M$ would've been laughed out of the building with Windows 95 because Apple's OS X-like OS would've been 10 years old by then!

Yes, I went off on a tangent, but my point was that Apple's turnaround began as soon as Steve came back, not six years ago when Jaguar came out.

Peace.
Olmecmystic

Apr 21, 08 - 02:52 pm Comment from: Lanzarote

Better late than never .-)

Apr 21, 08 - 03:22 pm Comment from: ChrissyOne

Cow-Tow? Oh ron. You're so much better than the rest of us.

Apr 21, 08 - 03:23 pm Comment from: Ferf Muckmeyer

MDN's approach to this article was fair. At first I did see it from max314's point of view, but after reading through it, MDN was fair. The writer did make statements that were a joke, but in the end he wised up a bit. The end result anyway was a new Mac convert - always a good thing.

Riddle me this...

How can a person be a an atheist Christian?

Although it was nice to see a Windows user finally taking a real look at MacOS, I was genuinely saddened to read his assessment (on ArsTechnica) of MacOS prior to MacOS X. It appeared to totally ignore the reality of how MacOS worked or the improvements that Apple made in the operating system over its 15 year lifetime.

The portion of the article that has been published failed to recognize that the carbon API was only possible due to the maturity and quality of the MacOS API. It completely ignored that MacOS programs often were more polished and ran better simply due to the quality of the MacOS ROM and the routines therein.

Admittedly things are better now that the MacOS X APIs are really an application framework. Whereas the MacOS API were really just a list of library routines and the developer had to either select or code a framework for their application.

Apr 21, 08 - 04:22 pm Comment from: Hm...

@ C1
I've towed cows. But then, I always go back and clean up after.

@ Riddler
The churches/synagogues/etc. are filled with them every Sunday morning. Just take a close look around.

Apr 21, 08 - 04:23 pm Comment from: LordRobin

@Ray: Exactly what I was thinking. First computer in 1997? A whole 11 years ago?? But he's a big boy now and his face has almost cleared up.

------RM

Good answer.

Very observational.

But, incorrect.

Think more, pun-like.

Apr 21, 08 - 05:38 pm Comment from: ChrissyOne

My first computer was a Vic 20, and you don't hear me bragging about it...

"i can build my own XP based PC for half the price of a Mac and it will still shit all over it.
MAC = overpriced and overhyped.
advertising does alot of brainwashing. i would know. im in the industry -_-"

@Strummer123
im sorry but i cant help but laugh at you you act like you know what your talking about, but you seem to be playing off alot of bias. if you look at the un-bias facts, apple is the innovator of this computer race. (btw i own a pc)
Microsoft has been copying apple for years. strummer let me ask you something, do you like being able to minimize, and ex out your internet browser window ? well apple invented that, then soon after, Microsoft stole the idea, and named their operating systems "windows" after the windows idea created by apple. Ofcourse apple tried to protect their idea, but Microsoft threatened to stop supplying "Microsoft office" to apple. so they were forced to be stolen from. well now apple is pulling through and Microsoft's tight grip is slowly loosening(Thank god)
And what about Apple's mobile computer (iphone) Why is everyone copying that too ? because its right on target. enough said, apple products are amazing, the market has clearly spoken. sorry to burst your bubble guys but Microsoft is old and out-dated, soon to be passed up even further by apple

Apr 21, 08 - 06:43 pm Comment from: Mr. Reeee

Riddler,
One can be CULTURALLY Xtian… raised in Xtian culture, holidays, etc., but philosophically and "spiritually" (?) an atheist.

Just like me, in fact. ;^)

Apr 21, 08 - 07:09 pm Comment from: MasterMacNikon

Hey Zune Tang,
I guess that you have not figured out, yet, that it is morons like you who and Enderle give us reasons to come back to this site.

FUD is as FUD does. Where's your feather now?

Biased idiocy. Our Humor. ©®
………
Oh yeah, games.....hmmm, grow up...wait, not possible. They, strummer### & Zune Tang, are still "living" in the basement/seperate bedroom where the best feat of the day is to not disturb mommy while she is having company over.
………
Now, I will welcome this newcomer to the Mac Family and anyone who is willing to make a decent effort to enjoy the enlightenment of having a Computer. Something that will work with you.

Even with the presumptions that someone may have lived with for a time, they will learn the truth soon enough.

I think maybe he was Born in 1997. Windows 95 stable?! California is stable when there isn't an earthquake.

Windows 95 was Never stable.

Total garbage - it just worked better than the Windows 3.1 hack.

>First computer in 1997? I feel old<

My first computer was a VIC-20 that I bought in 1985. What does that make me?

There are no real software developers on this forum are there? The OSX APIs are complete crap, they can’t even do simple file merging operations. Not to mention that you have to learn Objective-C to interface with the APIs.

The only software developers that work on Macs make little $20 programs to make a quick buck on something that would be free on any other platform. Generally OSX is laughed at by developers and with good reason.

Apr 21, 08 - 08:27 pm Comment from: GizmoDan

"there's a real sense that their developers care that they don't suck," Bright writes. "Windows software has never struck me as being like that.

What a classic!

Hooo hoo! Another good answer.

But again. Incorrect.

How about? ...

'He' is not a Christian atheist. But, he's an atheist. And, he's a Christian. Who is 'he'?

Apr 21, 08 - 09:08 pm Comment from: MCCFR

Linux User…

And yet, each WWDC is more well attended than the previous WWDC.

And applications like Time Machine</B>, <I>Disco and Delicious Library continue to set new standards when compared to their Windows and Linux counterparts.

As for things being free: sometimes you have to remember the dictum about things being worth what you pay for them - there is a lot of freeware out there, but it's often not as good as the donation/shareware equivalents because there's no financial incentive for the developer to keep refining and evolving the product.

@MCCFR

"As for things being free: sometimes you have to remember the dictum about things being worth what you pay for them - there is a lot of freeware out there, but it's often not as good as the donation/shareware equivalents because there's no financial incentive for the developer to keep refining and evolving the product."

Yet Apple uses open source software extensively. If free software was as bad as you imply I doubt Apple would base important applications like Safari around it.

As for "donation/shareware" software being any good it may work adequately for small trivial application. You don't see things like Samba, MySQL or WebKit being developed my lone programmers for $20 a pop do you?