“I have certain misgivings about Vista resembling Mac OS X. With its translucent windows, such comparisons are going to be hard to avoid. But Vista’s similarity with OS X goes well beyond window dressing. Certain applications, such as Calendar, Sidebar, and Photo Gallery, appear to be directly, ahem, influenced by similar applications in OS X. Microsoft has a response to that claim, which I’ll reveal in part 3 of this review, but suffice to say they’re going to get eaten alive for these similarities,” Thurrott writes.
Thurrott also claims, “Of course, Windows Vista is still Windows, and that means you can be far more productive with Vista than is possible with OS X, especially if you’re a heavy keyboard user like me. Virtually all of the familiar Windows keyboard shortcuts work just fine in Vista, and since the system is basically laid out just like XP–with a familiar Start menu, taskbar, desktop, and folder structure, most users will be able to get right to work.”
MacDailyNews Take: That assumes you’re a Windows user for life and you’re incapable of ever unlearning keyboard commands for the bad copy of the old classic Mac OS that is Windows and learning the more productive Mac OS X way. That’s way too big an assumption for us. Familiarity doesn’t breed productivity; it helps, but it doesn’t trump a thoughtfully-designed UI in the hands of a power user. That way-too-big finger stretch from the command key in Windows to any letter key is just one example. On a Mac, it’s done right, with the command key more centrally-located, right next to the spacebar. On WIndows, you have to perform feats that would make Stretch Armstrong proud. Multiply that by thousands of other Windows UI mistakes and the end result doesn’t equal “far more productive.” Windows wasn’t designed to be more productive for the user, it was designed like an upside down and backwards Mac in an unsuccessful attempt to avoid triggering a lawsuit from Apple.
Talking about the 6-8 new Windows Vista versions, Thurrott continues, “it’s too confusing. One thing Apple gets right is that you get OS X, and you’re done. There’s only one version of the OS (well, there’s a version for servers too, of course) and Apple doesn’t try to bifurcate the market with a bunch of silly versions, most of which offers certain features not found in other product editions. It’s inane.”
Full article here.
MacDailyNews Take: Anyone who claims Microsoft is an innovator with Windows only need look at Apple’s OS release dates versus Microsoft’s throughout history. On every single day of the last twenty-two years (Macintosh debuted on January 24, 1984), Apple’s operating system UI was first, ahead, and leading the way and Microsoft copied it later – usually poorly. But, hey, there’s always one exception, so thanks to Microsoft (or whoever thought it up first) for that Mac OS X Command-Tab thing that we never use.
[UPDATE: 10:27am EST: Revised first “Take” description of Mac command key location on keyboard.]
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Hey ! I like that Command-Tab thing. It is a great way of shutting down all my applications before I put my PowerBook to sleep at the end of the day.
abqMac beat me to it – I like the command-tab deal as well, and the OS X version seems better implemented (from my limited windoze experience)…
MDN word – extent – as in “to What Extent will Windows copy OS X’s [insert app name here]”
“Microsoft going to get eaten alive”
Alive or dead. Just as long as they’re fully digested.
MW: analysis. Spanish for tech. writers and Yes men in a conspiracy.
Vista will still get viruses, malware, spyware. It’s lipstick on a pig.
NO they won’t…know why…Microsoft’s core audience doesn’t care were M$ appropriates it’s intellectual property from. It won’t matter a hill a beans. Of course you know it’s done deliberately to throw tar in the roadway to Apple’s possible encroachment into the corporate world. But unless they change their default security configuration this desperate act will only delay eventual loss of OS market share.
Me too! I use command-tab all the time. It’s the one Windows “feature” that I was thrilled to see added to OS X.
command – tab rocks. use it.
RIGHT ON BRADY,
Command-Tab is my best friend when I do web development… edit in TextWrangler, switch to Safari to test; repeat 500 times. Expose is WAY too unwieldy for this.
Command-Tab rules!
Command-Tab is awesome; works well with Exposé when dragging and dropping between apps, etc.
Do not discount the help that Command-Tab is to Windows users, like myself, that depend on that functionality for application switching.
Expose is great, but slower and solves a different problem, than Command (nee Alt) Tab.
Alas the ignorant masses will believe Microsoft has “caught up” again. Those that have ever heard of the Mac, that is.
Most Mac applications could improve efficiency with a few more shortcuts. I know I would use them. However, research has shown that keyboard shortcuts are very rarely used by even very experienced users (other than journalists perhaps) for anything other than cut, copy, and paste. That makes it a non-issue for most. The vast majority use icons just about all the time.
What I don’t understand is why Microsoft has a need to release all of those incomplete builds of their OS each month. That would drive me crazy. You can’t install it on your “real” computer, and you know there are going to be flaws so why bother? Apple just releases a new version, complete, beautiful, innovative and ready to be loaded onto your grandmother’s Mac will full confidence. There are no crippled versions forcing the consumer to struggle with trying to predict the future of their computing needs. On a Mac, it’s the same OS on the minis and laptops as it is on the Quad towers.
Even with Mac’s fractional market share, I expect there to be a much faster adoption of Leopard than with Vista, not to mention a much better user experience after the installation.
The “apple” command key is right next to the spacebar not the keyboard.
ThurRot got one thing right, 6 or 8 versions of Windows is rediculous and very confusing. Perhaps that appeals to the average MS purchaser, they like the mystery and intrigue of discovering their OS shortcomings and problems.
A large portion of the computing using world doesnt even know what a keyboard shortcut is.
The ones who do are mainly using cut copy and paste. Oh the humanity of trying to adapt the Mac way of doing this.
For kicks I priced out several Alienware PC machines yesterday. They all ended up costing a lot more than a PowerMac Quad for similar features.
It’s nice to know that if you have a problem with an Apple there are many support options available.
I’m wondering what the support of todays Alien-PC (or HP or Dell) will be after Vista hits the market.
Don’t have to worry about Gateway support, they will have gone out of business by the time Vista rolls.
hey…vista looks good. those screenshots are about the sexiest thing ever out of redmond.
i wonder how much if vista is just eye candy?
7 versions of eye candy…
As much as I love Apple, I think they were VERY naughty ‘implementing’ Command-Tab they way they have…
http://www.proteron.com/liteswitchx/
The REAL inventors of Command-Tab as we know it!
I use command tab –
(when I’m on my old g3 tower at work playing spaceward ho and I hear my boss comming – command tab makes it go away quick and come back just as quick. You should try it. Also, for the few mac users who have never played spaceward ho, it rocks. Like Risk only more complex. Like Civilization, only more simple…)
Aye.. Alt-Tab app switching rules. OSX *did* steal it, and OSX *does* implement it better (permitting you to hit Q to quit an app without releasing the CMD-Key or leaving CMD-Tab mode)
Then again, I got no problem with the Windows shortcut keys, either. ALT-F4 is no less obscure than CMD-W for closing a window, and F1 for Help is really nice.
Command-Tab and Expose offer similar functionality but in different ways, personally when using a mouse I only use Expose but if for some reason I’m heavily into the keyboard I will use Command-Tab or Witch.
In fact there is only one thing I would really like to see OS X add from windows and that’s being able to see a folder tree type view in the sidebar, it suits my mindset when flicking from multiple folders.
Another vote for Command-Tab. Command-tab in Mac OS X is implimented in a way superior to Windows in that it is more appealing visually and provides better functionality (ability to Quit apps, etc).
I use command-tab all the time as well and I have Expose with a hot corner just to add to the variety. I use the hot corner for quick switching and C-Tab for quick quit of apps before shutting down.
My little PC friends love to watch and wonder. Shift-minimise in sloooowwwww mmooottttiiiiiooon also gets them wet.
Leo
As I read the threads regarding Windows Vista looking very much like OS X, I thought about Steve Jobs goal to differentiate OS X from Windows. Microsoft knows this all too well. It is quite apparent that Bill Gates is a huge fan of OS X and is worried about what Steve Jobs is doing with it.
Bill apparently realizes that OS X is far more attractive visually, laid out more logically, works far better and is simply a superior operating system.
By making Vista look and work just like OS X, he is probably expecting Steve Jobs to radically change the look and function of OS X. Then, by default, he will have the OS X that we enjoy so much and windows users will become as passionate about it as we are and Mac users will have something less functional and attractive.
I love Command-Tab for switching apps. I also use it for quitting and hiding apps. While holding Command, release the tab and press Q or H. Don’t know if you can do that in Windows.
Thurrott is a tool. I do love the command-tab function though. Very quick way to jump from one app to another.
Even though M$ loves there photocopier, they fail to grasp the most basis rules of GUI. The “eye candy” in OS X is almost always useful in telling you what is happening. The gennie effect shows you that a document is being minimized to the dock. Double-clicking an app icon zooms out to show you that the app is launching.
From what I have seen of Vista, they have added some effects that are arbitrary and meaningless, like windows wiggling. They just don’t get it.
Also, I hope Vista changes the copying graphic. I want to laugh everytime I see that sheet of paper moving 6 inches across the screen to the other folder. It smacks of a very sorry cartoon.
If Vista introduces any elegance, I’ll be shocked.
Vista will incorporate a new feature not seen in Mac OS X. It will be a flush key. It will be used when you have a blue screen of death error and will incorporate quartz like graphics as you will see the whole screen swirl and a 6 channel digital sound file of a industrial toilet flushing. You can either map the flush key to your keyboard or a sidebar icon.
So, do you think he will claim (in part 3) that it is really the mac that is copying Windows? And that only in-the-know people like him know the real truth?
How can Bill Gates not be totally embarrassed? He has thousands upon thousands of the worlds best engineers and programmers, and after many years of effort, all he has is a regurgitated XP poorly cloaked under a GUI obviously stolen from Apple.
“All the kings horses and all the kings men couldn’t put Humpty back together again.”
is command-tab, great when you’re going back and forth between 2 apps or more on a consistent basis (and it’s directional sibling command-shift-tab…which is nice when you have 10 apps open and accidentally tab by the one you want).
use it every day
ummm, command-tab to switch apps has been in the Mac OS for a looong time (way before OS X). OS X just made it look sexy instead of stupid and ugly like in Windows.
What’s with the multiple versions of Vista? I think that would create a massive amout of frustration for the consumer –
“Which version should they buy, and if it is too much of a head-ache – to figure out – forget it.”
My guess – they’ll either stay with what they have or purchase the much easier to understand and less complicated Mac.
Thurrott needs to run a small business. We switched from Windows to OS 9 years ago because of lost productivity and the high cost of maintaining Windows PCs.
“Of course, Windows Vista is still Windows, and that means you can be far more productive with Vista than is possible with OS X, especially if you’re a heavy keyboard user like me.”
ROFLMFAO
Oh, god good one! No serious wth is Thurrott smoking?
one of my in-laws once asked me: “aren’t all computers windoze?” this is what we’re up against.
so what about Leopard ?
apple is poised for a great counter-punch
huge opportunity
amazing that there is so little speculation on Leopard and so much on new device configuration
Uh, Doc Bob, far from making Vista “look and work just like OS X”, Billy Boy has, as Mike so eloquently put it, “poorly cloaked” XP. Aside from an overkill of translucence and liberal 3D and animated effects, it’s still XP.
Loving cmd+tab, about tabing past the app you want:
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when you have pressed cmd+tab you can use the arrows to navigate. not for everyday use but it’s a nice feature when you do have 10+ apps open. when you do, expose is no joy either
“Of course, Windows Vista is still Windows, and that means you can be far more productive with Vista than is possible with OS X”
Oooohhh! Paul started off strong and the he had to blow it with that line. Oh well, common sense, like democracy, don’t arrive over night.
_____
I usually use Expose but there are times when command-tab comes in really handy, like when switching between apps that use multiple windows like the Final Cut Studio apps. Expose make a huge mess of those, and they all look very similar, so command-tab is great.
Do NOT click on this guy’s site, no one can be that dense, he’s fishing for hits, “Mamma needs a new iMac.”
Or maybe he is, sadly, many windows are trying to achieve perfection through mediocrity.
MDN pontificates: “That way-too-big finger stretch from the command key in Windows to any letter key is just one example. On a Mac, it’s done right, with the command key more centrally located, right next to the spacebar.”
Oh, yeah, MDN – LOL – why don´t you tell Apple to make an ad campaign on that one. You will get millions of people switching from Windows to Mac because of this.
” width=”19″ height=”19″ alt=”LOL” style=”border:0;” />
Windows Vista will probably dazzle a lot of unsuspecting PC drones, so I hope Apple does what it promised: counter with a new release of Mac OSX. I’m not crazy about the use of cat names, but I hope Leopard will be a revolutionary upgrade. I still feel the FINDER needs to go. It’s not much more than a folder within a folder within a folder. If it’s one thing Windows did right, it was the Start button. Apple’s blue apple would be the perfect place to have something similar. Putting the APPS folder on the dock (forced to the far right) is hesitant, clunky and awkward. Finder just sucks. Reminds me of Program Manager from the Windows 3.1 days. And the dock only goes so far. And forget icons on the desktop; I can’t stand them!!!! Leopard needs to change OSX more towards Windows in certain regards, or forget building marketshare extracting from the Windows base. OSX still has a ways to go, and that’s good, because if there was no room for improvement, there would be nowhere to go but down. Vista sucks, but I don’t underestimate the boost if will give PC sales. Apple has to pull off something big, and I’d love to hear everyone’s ideas about what you think it will be and when?
Productivity with keyboard commands? Why then in Firefox with multiple tabs open do I not see a way to use a key command to switch between tabs? I have to click on it. Unless I just don’t see it, but I try to see as little as possible with windows.
Speaking of “what we’re up against,” last week I was speaking to a person who makes well into six figures–someone who could afford the finest of what Apple has to offer. I mentioned Apple computers, and she was quite taken aback that Apple even still sold *computers*. She was under the impression that they had transitioned to a music devices company.
Command tab rockz
Command ~ rockz even more!!
Nuff said boyz n grrlz
MW= come… uh I leave it up to your imagination
” “Talking about the 6-8 new Windows Vista versions, Thurrott continues, “it’s too confusing. One thing Apple gets right is that you get OS X, and you’re done. There’s only one version of the OS (well, there’s a version for servers too, of course) and Apple doesn’t try to bifurcate the market with a bunch of silly versions, most of which offers certain features not found in other product editions. It’s inane.” “
And yet he considers using Windows to be far more productive?
Inane, indeed.
Command-Tab was there in Mac OS 9 well before OSX came along, it just didn’t work nearly as well. You couldn’t quit applications using it (like you can in OSX), and it also didn’t display a nice menu on-screen when you used it, but OSX hasn’t always done that. I think it was added in 10.3 (correct me if I’m wrong)
Anyway, I think Command-Tab is awesome! Just thought I’d clarify when it came about on the Mac.
Turd-rot is still turd no matter what he says.
There have been PRODUCTIVITY studies with Windows vs Mac in the past and every single one of them I’ve read finds that users doing the same tasks on a Mac are more productive. Just another factor into the hidden cost of using Windows.
You don’t need command-tab. Just hit Command-option-shift-Q. All your apps quit (gently, with save reminders, not Forced) and your account logs out.
iMaki
You are full of it! The Start button is the worst aspect of Windows! It’s way down in the left hand corner for one thing, and how stupid is it that you have to go to the “Start” button when you want to turn off the computer. How counter intuitive is that! I use XP Professional at work, what a steaming pile of dung! So much repetitive keyboarding that I’m getting RSI, I’ve never felt pain after a session on my Mac.
The one thing I miss on newer Macs is the Power button is no longer on the keyboard, I could just tap it once and then choose to restart, sleep or shut down. Quick easy and intuitive, the Mac way.
http://daringfireball.net/2003/10/commandtab
For anyone interested in a free system add-on that combines the functionality of command-tab with Expose, check out Witch (MXNT 4.1 mentions it above). Witch allows you to cycle between all open documents (not just apps) with an interface similar to command-tab (but it is up and down, not left and right). You can set any keyboard combo to activate it that you want. Oh, and did I say that it’s free?
Scott,
You can cycle between open Firefox tabs via the keyboard. I think it is command-option-arrow key (left or right). If that isn’t it, keep trying keyboard combos – you’ll find it. I’m currently at work suffering (as I do everyday) with an XP box, so I can’t know for sure what the combo is, but there is one.
Cubert
Command-W is much more intuitive than ALT-F4. Really.
Because “W” is the first letter in the English word “Window.”
“F4” is related to “window” how?
Function keys suck, they should have gone away decades ago, except bad software keeps using them.
At least Apple has put useful functions, like brightness and volume, on their function keys.
On Windows, they just suck.
Function Keys are great, especially in Quark for bringing up Palettes. In my experience, Quark has been the single most compliant developer in regards to making tremendous use of key commands — for anything from showing and hiding palettes, bringing up indispensable programming boxes, to straight out command application.
The Finder is awesome because it’s anything you want it to be — provided you know what you’re doing.
Command+Tab is fine. But I prefer Option+Click on application icons for automatic hiding.
Forget Vista. Has anyone here used the beta of Office 12? It’s basically brushed metal + aqua. They don’t even try and hide it.
MDN MW: “taken.” Seriously.
Three words:
Fast. User. Switching.
Thank you, Microsoft!
I do miss having more keyboard shortcuts in my programs
Take a gander:
http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Switcher.txt&sortOrder=Sort by Date&detail=medium&search=switcher
Paul Thurrott’s Vista and OS X comparison:
http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_beta1_vs_tiger_02.asp
Enjoy!
Just a few things that Paul Thurrott, aka. “That Tool”, has to say in his comparison of Vista to OS X – this is all from ONE article. The point here is that Paul’s not anti-Mac, as is implied in this forum. Hell, the guy owns multiple Macs and constantly praises them.
“Mac OS X, meanwhile, was truly designed for excellent security, thanks to its wonderful UNIX roots and clean architecture.”
“Therefore, OS X is, in many ways, more secure than Windows is today…”
“The Vista beta adds some security features that OS X has had for years, and it does have a few niceties that OS X lacks. But it’s hard to vote against OS X here. The Vista beta, after all, is still Windows.”
“Tiger, meanwhile, is secure out of the box with regards to user accounts. That’s because OS X supports a better native security model than does Windows.”
“Comparing that system with the cleanly designed OS X is almost comical. If Microsoft can pull it off–and this is an uncertainty at this writing–Windows will finally pick up security functionality that the Mac has enjoyed for years.”
“One area in which Apple has done a commendable job is parental controls…give Apple credit for delivering on parental controls well ahead of Microsoft.”
“In any event, Apple does a good job of disabling unnecessary or potentially dangerous system services when an OS X system starts up.”
“In short, Mac OS X is more secure than Windows today, and will likely remain so even after Windows Vista is released.”
“(In regards to networking) OS X, by comparison, is much simpler.”
“The fact that OS X can access Windows shares at all is, of course, excellent.”
“Power management in OS X is much more straightforward.”
“Overall, I find Mac OS X to be easier to use with regards to power management, and I give Apple the nod for its instant-on/instant-off functionality.”
“Once again, the maturity and refinement in OS X has won out over the still-in-development Windows Vista.”
Still think he’s a tool, and Anti-Mac?
I’m so embarassed; been a Mac user since the mid 1990’s and Mac owner since 2001, and I never knew about Command-Tab. It’s quite cool…
FUDsucker Proxy sez:
>The one thing I miss on newer Macs is the Power
>button is no longer on the keyboard, I could just
>tap it once and then choose to restart, sleep or
>shut down. Quick easy and intuitive, the Mac way.
true, but ctrl-eject will do the same thing… not as elegant as a power button, but the functionality is still there.
>research has shown that keyboard shortcuts are very
>rarely used by even very experienced users (other
>than journalists perhaps) for anything other than
>cut, copy, and paste.
talk to serious video editors… they’ll tell you otherwise. we LOVE our keyboard commands!
In 1995 when MS finally released a Windows interface over DOS that was at least reasonably non idiotic, someone made up a bumper sticker that read
“Windows 95 = Macintosh 89”
And it’s never NOT been true. When was the Mac Os the wonkiest? Yep Mac 7-8 … same with Windows XP – since it’s essentially based on Mac OS7 … How long as OSX been out? 6 years. When is Vista coming out? That’s right – 6 years AFTER OSX.
Again, if you need to save a few bucks and you don’t mind a 6-year knockoff – there’s Windows for you. If you want to be at the leading edge and you can afford to non-generic products – the Mac is clearly the main driver of the PC market.
Apple + Tab is great! I use it dozens of times a day.
Let’s not forget, that Apple “borrowed” Windows’ user switching, which Steve Jobs admitted that Windows did better than the Mac at that time. Only Apple did it better and more securely than Windows, of course.
just my 2 cents, but i use cmd-tab all the time, just used it to get to safari from mail in fact.
“Apple’s operating system UI was first, ahead, and leading the way and Microsoft copied it later – usually poorly.”
True, but you have to give some credit to the Amiga. Although it is considered to be a “dead” platform, think about this – 1985: The Amiga 1000 – FIRST personal computer with a fully pre-emptive multitasking operating system. It could display 4096 colors, had dedicated sound and graphics chips, and a bit blitter chip (moves large chunks of memory very fast) and was also open architechture. Not to shabby for being released ONE year after the first Mac.
Just informational – save the flames.
A more attractive GUI does not equal a “superior OS.” Windows has plenty of advantages over OS X; for example, consider the 64-bit support (on 64-bit processors). Windows does not share OS X’s CLI-only limitation for 64-bit applications. It has a much finer-grained threading model, and scales much better over multiple processors–which will become increasingly important as chip manufacturers turn to multi-core designs to raise performance. OS X is a fine OS, but forget the marketing hype and be rational for a moment–there are plenty of Windows advantages today that deserve discussion, but you won’t find that at sites like this, or from most other tech media (or from Thurrott, for that matter). Furthermore, Vista will improve the Windows OS in many significant ways. Suggesting that Vista will merely “catch up” to OS X is not only simplistic nonsense, it’s blithely ignorant of where Windows is today and where it’s going.
cmd-tab implies a differnt workflow than alt-tab.
alt-tab cycles through every freaking open window; in another words, a linear progress through all your open windows.
cmd-tab cycles through every application, then cmd-~ (tilda) cycles through the windows in a selected application. the effect is a non-linear progression through your applications/windows.
i often have about 7~10 applications running each with its set of windows (sometime up to 10), i am shivering just by thinking about windows managing those windows with alt-tab.
a combo i often use is cmd-tab to desired application, then “application windows” expose. i found it to be the quickest way to take me to my desired window.
In January, I was verrryyy close to finally switching from Windows to Macs (after being a 13 year Windows user)
Basically, I was looking for Apple to give me that extra push.
Hell I event installed the developers OSX on my PC, to see what to expect.
Unfortunately, the push from Apple didn’t come. In fact, the opposite, I’ve found Apple and its users to be too smug, simplifying Windows as a crash-a-minute time-sapping tool.
I gotta tell you, Despite the negatives of Windows, there are waaaay more positives over OSX. Admittedly, most of the positives, are to do with the fact that Windows has such a commanding market share, that most companies have to support it.
Nevertheless, this situation will not change by Apple staying firmly put, and not helping switchers. (Have you seen the Mac Mini site on Apple, you have to buy a third part app, if you want to effectively move your files from Windows to OSX… This kind of thing should be free).
No my friends, as a Windows person who was SERIOUSLY AND DEFINITELY close to switching, I am now far-far away. I bet there are plenty of people like me in that regard.
Apple has missed the boat, and Microsoft is being clever by touting the impending release of Vista. I mean what do I care if Vista has copied the good stuff from OSX? All it means for me is that I end up with a better OS on my PC.
As far as Apple are concerned, they end up stuck in their 4% market share, and with sooooo many wasted opportunities.
“No DVR mac-mini, cuz we want to make money with i-tunes videos”
“We’re not selling OSX for PCs… Let the hacker do it for themselves, and we won’t make money off it”
That 30th Anniversary announcemnt better be a doozy. If it isn’t then this small window of interst I have ever had with Apple products will finally close.
I am writing as a potential switcher, and as noted, it wouldn;t surprise me if there were plenty of potential switchers like me.
Blu Vg:
I think that your admiration of Microsoft is not well placed. You infer that MS has certain ostensible design advantages; however, these are, at best, a few well-made bricks that make up a badly constructed house. MS will have to release an OS with some new and useful features to prove that it has the capacity to build a truly excellent OS. By excellent I mean not an inferior copy of OS X or something simply new or different, I mean something radically innovative. Based on history I do not think that MS is up to the task.
In addition, your denigration of OS X as simply being “attractive” misses the whole point of what an OS is meant to be. Humans rely on the visual interface as the link between the brain and the software. The attraction of OS X is the subtle and elegant way information is exchanged between the user and the machine. You cannot claim OS X’s beauty is only skin deep, but praise MS for attempting to copy, duplicate, or imitate some unique feature of OS X.
meatofmoose:
What I’m pointing out is that the vast majority of comparisons of OS X to Windows *are* only skin-deep. As for admiration being not well-placed, this gets to the heart of one of the issues: the computer is a tool. There is no reason to get deeply emotionally involved–it’s not going to love you back. This has nothing to do with admiration; it has to do with facts (I’ve given a couple of very real, very important examples, not just vague references to “ostensible design advantages”) about the underlying architectures of both platforms. These aren’t just any “well-made bricks;” these are at the foundation.
Inevitably there are going to be similarities between Windows and the Mac, and that is a great testament to the genius of Engelbart’s original GUI concepts (check out: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8734787622017763097&q=engelbart). There is a strength for users in having so much similarity between UIs across so many different platforms–MacOS, Windows, Solaris, Linux (GNOME/KDE), BeOS, Amiga, PalmOS, etc. etc. But there seems to be a tendency among the Mac advocates to get very persnickety about certain things they feel they “own.” It reminds me of an uptight neighbor that thinks you’re copying everything they do to their house, lawn, car, etc. You might not give a rat’s behind what they do, but should they really take offense that after they put up a tree in their yard, you did too? Nevermind that yours is a maple and theirs is an apple tree, or that you want shade for the house and they want fruit, or even that you ordered yours months before they did but didn’t plant it until after. This isn’t some giant conspiracy to steal all Apple’s ideas, and besides, many of them weren’t originally Apple ideas anyways. To me, there is a bit of paranoia at work. What do they really want? Would they feel much better about themselves if Apple had originally came up with the GUI and mouse concepts, and to this day the only GUI computer available would be from Apple? I’m not really sure what is motivating people when they say things like Windows is “an inferior copy of OS X.” Would I say that OS X is an inferior copy of Windows because it has kludgy 64-bit support? No, it has inferior 64-bit support, but it’s not a copy. Would I say that the MacOS is copying Microsoft because they introduced pre-emptive multitasking years after Windows? No, that’s silly.
I’m not denigrating OS X as being merely attractive. I *am* denigrating those comparisons between Windows and the Mac which are very superficial and focus almost solely on reactions to the GUI. I totally agree that the UI is very important, and yes, it is the human interface (for most humans) to the computer. I also realize very well that there is more to OS X than the GUI… but what is rarely discussed–beyond saying that “it’s UNIX-based,” which doesn’t tell one much–is how those underlying pieces compare to those in Windows. Furthermore, I don’t want to give the impression that the Windows GUI should be dismissed, either, as there are plenty of things that can be compared and discussed about that, also (though I think there is a good chance that discussion would be completely dismissed on this site). This isn’t about praise/admiration and denigration at all–OS X is a fine OS. This is simply about looking at the facts and acknowledging that the Windows OS has many distinct, important technological superiorities compared to OS X.
Billy Ash:
I too was a Windows guy who considered switching, but my choice was made back during the Windows98/Me days. Needless to say, I wound up taking the plunge and have never looked back. I c
That said, your point about what Windows does right, as well as what luxuries a commanding market share will provide, are well taken – and too poorly considerd by most of the posters you will find here. XP is NOT Me, and does have enough good points to make anyone using it feel a degree of comfort. Which brings us the ‘Inertia Factor’ – the REAL hurdle to Mac adoption – and you are a good example of that in action. You needed The Push, based on your own requirements, to overcome your already well- established Windows Routines. And you didn’t find it. Everyone else using Windows will have a similar bar to clear, though some will look to different types of Pushes (system performance, keyboard shortcuts, software compatibility, etc…)
All in all, I found the part of Thurott’s article that MDN DIDN’T reprint to be the most troubling for the future: “For now, please understand that I was getting ready to be very negative about this build. I was prepared to be unimpressed. But Microsoft has pulled a fast one. The February CTP isn’t just good, it’s great. In fact, I’m feeling better about Windows Vista than I have in a long, long time.”
And THAT, folks, is why Apple’s momentum is going to die out. As Vista becomes more refined (it will), and as M$ plugs enough security holes (they will), and as more OSX exploits – harmless or not – are reported on (they will be), I think we’ll be seeing a re-solidifiying of Window’s marketshare position. Apple will be stuck around 5% – 10% at the most. That’s great news for Apple in the short term, but long term they really won’t have improved their position much. And if the Macintel transition doesn’t provide the benefits people are expecting (truly better performance and radically different products have just NOT shown up), when they are expecting them, I could easily forsee an actual collapse.
Consider if M$ is smart enough to parlay their role as HD-DVD ‘spoiler’ into something broader – i.e. as a champion of Fair Use Rights. Right now, Apple is on just entering the doorway to the wrong side of this issue. The whole Macintel deal is based on locking computers down, not encouraging fair use, in order to satisfy the content providers (of which Jobs has now become one himself – at Pixar/Disney). If that ‘black hat’ perception on Jobs gets any traction, it would be a really powerful – and more than a bit ironic – tool M$ could use against us.
They latter is all supposition of course, but not too wildly so. In any event, I don’t think we should be taking Vista lightly at all. If it’s ‘just good enough’, AND Gates somehow channels his soft & fuzzy philanthropic persona into his business strategy vis a vis consumers & DRM, we could be looking at a whole new ball-game that no one on the Mac side seems prepared for – that of our favorite OS being portrayed as the bad guy.
yikes.
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Blu Vg:
Where do I start?
“But there seems to be a tendency among the Mac advocates to get very persnickety about certain things they feel they “own.””
I am not “persnickety” about Microsoft copying or imitating Apple’s OS X. In fact, I rather enjoy seeing MS desperately trying to catch up with OS X by attempting to duplicate the same features designed by Apple.
“This isn’t some giant conspiracy to steal all Apple’s ideas, and besides, many of them weren’t originally Apple ideas anyways.”
This simple begs the question, why has it taken Microsoft so long to develop Vista and so quickly butcher Longhorn if, as you claim, these ideas were known years ago? It seems obvious that bringing an idea to commercial relevance is the important thing. For example, Lewis and Clark would have no historical importance if they simply had the “idea” of traveling to the Pacific coast but did nothing but sit on their front porches in Virginia.
“Inevitably there are going to be similarities between Windows and the Mac, and that is a great testament to the genius of Engelbart’s original GUI concepts.”
Inevitably, there are going to be similarities between Yugo SV and the Infiniti M, and that is a great testament to the genius of Gottlieb Daimler’s original concepts. Do you see the inherent discrepancy of your thinking?
“This is simply about looking at the facts and acknowledging that the Windows OS has many distinct, important technological superiorities compared to OS X.”
Please enumerate what “superiorities” exist for Windows versus OS X by carefully and analytically comparing and contrasting each of these. Try to be succinct.
“…but what is rarely discussed–beyond saying that “it’s UNIX-based,” which doesn’t tell one much…”
Again, you have failed to provide any rational or analytical comparison between the architectures of OS X and Windows. You more than guilty as the people you criticize by not providing any examples how the system architecture of Windows is better than OS X.
“I’m not really sure what is motivating people when they say things like Windows is ‘an inferior copy of OS X.’”
I would suppose that some Mac users, such as myself who are obligated to use Windows at work, have the unique perspective of being experienced using both operating systems. This is unlike many ignorant Windows users that I know, who claim Windows superiority, but admit never having used OS X.
meatofmoose:
“This simple begs the question, why has it taken Microsoft so long to develop Vista and so quickly butcher Longhorn if, as you claim, these ideas were known years ago?”
The things I referenced specifically as advantages that exist *today*, with or without Vista. Your point about “bringing the idea to commercial relevance” in a vague sense means nothing, as I could make the same comment about 64-bit support in OS X (more on this in a moment).
“Inevitably, there are going to be similarities between Yugo SV and the Infiniti M, and that is a great testament to the genius of Gottlieb Daimler’s original concepts. Do you see the inherent discrepancy of your thinking?”
No, to the extent that the analogy is valid. A more accurate analogy would be to say, among all cars, the similarity of the UI–ie., a steering wheel, a gas pedal, a brake pedal, etc.–is a great testament. It’s all little silly to argue about a manufacturer “copying” someone else’s “brake pedal UI metaphor”–as if it was their idea in the first place. Whether you like one manufacturer’s implementation over another’s is different and entirely up to you. Nonetheless, there still is the issue of which brake gets the car to stop the fastest.
“Please enumerate what “superiorities” exist for Windows versus OS X by carefully and analytically comparing and contrasting each of these. Try to be succinct.”
I’d go into greater detail, but I find it a bit bit of an odd request when I’ve already given two specific, important examples already (the CLI-only for 64-bit apps in OS X example easily confirmable through Apple’s own documentation–though they certainly don’t trumpet this fact–check out: http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/64bit/). Are you ignoring that on purpose?
“I would suppose that some Mac users, such as myself who are obligated to use Windows at work, have the unique perspective of being experienced using both operating systems. This is unlike many ignorant Windows users that I know, who claim Windows superiority, but admit never having used OS X.”
I don’t only use both, I support both; in fact, for a long time, I supported a 50-50 Mac/Windows environment. In my experience, both the Mac and Windows users are ignorant about the platforms on which they work, but the Mac users are the only ones that get quite arrogant about it–which is especially sad, since the ignorance is so apparent. They wouldn’t believe the inadequacies of their OS back in OS 8/9 days, either–it took the release of OS X for them to see that. They only words they seem to believe are those that come from the mouth of Steve Jobs. How do you think the “reality distortion field” phrase got started? How short do Mac advocates think the memory is of those to whom they evangelize? For years they bashed Intel, now people can’t wait to get their hands on a MacBook. They perpetually fail to see–or choose not to see–the disadvantages of their platform and where it does poorly, and to separate fact from fantasy.
At any rate, I’ve given two good, up-to-date examples, so why don’t we start from there. If you feel those are not accurate, please feel free to dispute them. But if you find that they are accurate, please simply be a reasonable, rational person and accept the facts as facts. Again I maintain, OS X is a fine OS, but Windows has many distinct, important technologies superiorities compared to OS X.
Windows XP has more programs (GSView for reading PS files, full-featured DJVU readers, and better DIVX support, a better firefox, just to name a few) more short-cut keys (I use these ALL the time, and I’m just a mathematician that uses Latex). Windows XP hardware (made by other companies) is more reliable (apple has made a history of developing originally designed laptops that have recharging units fail, I personally went through 4 that failed on me) and cheaper (Compaq options, faster despite having slower Harddrives give you much more bang for a buck).
All apple add-on third-party software is pretty expensive. I had to pay 40 dollars just to get my apple computer to communicate with my tungsten.
On XP I have the choice of turning on auto-defragmentation or auto-indexing for searching.
The list just goes on and on. Sure Apple computers are pretty, but they lack functionality and aren’t practical. You can get all that you’d ever want from Unix like BASH or such by installing CYGWIN on your Windows machine. It’s so much easier than using I-installer for installing basic libraries on a mac…
I attempted to switch this year, but Apple failed me never giving me hardware that was reliable enough or software that’s compatible enough.
I like OS X, but OS X really needs something like the taskbar and start button. OS X can feel arkward and clunky at times. Its much easier using the taskbar than using alt-tab or expose, no matter what you guys say. Also, Finder can make looking for applications really difficult, especially if you have multiple applications. So, in some ways, Windows is more productive. Windows will only get more productive with Vista, with inbuilt search (like spotlight), improved start menu, flip and flip 3D (expose for windows), previews of open windows when you hover over them in the taskbar and the sidebar(a bit like Dashboards functionality).
On a side note, I think Windows Vista is going really well, and it will be much more than XP but prettier. Vista, it seems, will exceed OS X, at the very least until Leopard comes out. All NT based Windows OS’s are very good, and bagging them out isn’t warranted.
(im not a windows zealot, im just realistic. I have a Mac running OS 10.3.9)
Of course windows has copied stuff from apple over the years but to say that apple has not done the same is just blind ignorance.
OS X itself ripped off many things in its GUI from windows. I remember sitting down with a lifetime windows user when we first got an OS X machine in the building, he could find his way around it much better than I (an os 9 user) could because it was so much more like windows.
The dock is just a fancy taskbar, system pref – taken from the control panel, the menu folder structure taken right from windows. the user profiles, fast user switching… all of it came from windows. So lets not pretend its just a one way street of theft.
Will Vista be better? who knows but stop with the silly mud slinging, just let people decide which one they want and let it be.
since when does the little guy eat microsoft?